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Suggestion: Macron MPT-xxx and MPT-xxx2

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Re: Suggestion: Macron MPT-xxx and MPT-xxx2

Postby Wester547 » June 22nd, 2013, 1:08 pm

LongRunner wrote:I think these PSUs do require low ESR caps.
It depends on what the feedback loop is tuned to and it depends on what other methods the PSU uses to suppress ripple. You could probably get away with anything as high as 75-85 ohms rated capacitors ESR wise. True, having lower ESR capacitors does mean an ultimately lower ripple voltage.

PCBONEZ's explanation (half ESR = twice the ripple current) assumed that the ripple voltage remains the same
Well, it can't, because lower ESR capacitors keep the ripple voltage lower anyway. But in order to do that, they have to work even harder.

If you replace (say) [b]one cap out of eight in parallel in a VRM with one of lower ESR, you will indeed get more ripple current through that individual cap, because they are at the same voltage and lower resistance across the same voltage does indeed mean more current, but if you replace all of the caps with lower ESR units the ripple voltage will drop, and the current through the group will (hypothetically) remain the same. (In practice it's not that simple, but I'm sure it's closer to the truth than what PCBONEZ said.)
PCBONEZ did say that one 3300uF capacitor would overheat where two 1500uF capacitors in parallel were designed to work. I could understand why.
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Re: Suggestion: Macron MPT-xxx and MPT-xxx2

Postby LongRunner » June 22nd, 2013, 2:12 pm

But in order to do that, they have to work even harder.

:huh:

PCBONEZ did say that one 3300uF capacitor would overheat where two 1500uF capacitors in parallel were designed to work. I could understand why.

I'm not sure specifically why he said that but it might be because ESR and ripple aren't linearly related to case size even within a series. In Panasonic FR for example 10x20mm is 20mΩ but 12.5x30mm (just over twice the volume) is 13mΩ, not 10mΩ. The lower you go in ESR, the more significant this effect becomes.

(Edited as having read the engineering documents, there isn't much more to impedance than ESR at the switching frequency. It was a "higher-ranking" Badcaps.net member that told me there was.)
Last edited by LongRunner on December 29th, 2013, 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Suggestion: Macron MPT-xxx and MPT-xxx2

Postby Wester547 » June 22nd, 2013, 3:14 pm

LongRunner wrote:
But in order to do that, they have to work even harder.

:huh:
The lower the ESR rating, the more ripple is passed (the more ripple is "dumped" to the ground through the capacitor, so it has to dispense of more ripple, thereby more internal heating).
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Re: Suggestion: Macron MPT-xxx and MPT-xxx2

Postby LongRunner » July 3rd, 2013, 12:26 am

Continuing with the MPT-4012...

The +3.3V and +5V have the same rectifiers as in MPT-xxx. The +12V now has 2 x MBR20100CT in parallel. The +5VSB has an SBL1040CT.

This time there are pi coils on all the rails (except -12V which uses a 7912 as previously mentioned), and the one on the +12V is massive. All of the main rails have OCP. +12V is split into two - one for the CPU (15A, black stripes) and one for everything else (14A; the combined limit is unspecified).

The main switchers are 2 x 2SK2765 in parallel and the 5VSB switcher is a KHB4D5N60F.

Unlike the older MPT-xxx units with their distinctive colour scheme (purple for +3.3V, orange for Power Good, brown for +5VSB and grey for on/off), MPT-xxx2 uses the standard colours.
Last edited by LongRunner on November 12th, 2013, 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Information is far more fragile than the HDDs it's stored on.

Smart people don't buy "smart" devices without very carefully weighing up the risks and benefits beforehand.

My PC: Core i3 4130 on GA-H87M-D3H with GT640 OC 2GiB and 2 * 8GiB Kingston HyperX 1600MHz, Kingston SA400S37120G, WD3003FZEX-00Z4SA0 and HDS721010CLA630, Pioneer BDR-209DBKS and Optiarc AD-7200S, Seasonic G-360, Chenbro PC31031, Linux Mint Cinnamon 20.2 (with Windows 7 still accessible if needed).
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Re: Suggestion: Macron MPT-xxx and MPT-xxx2

Postby LongRunner » November 12th, 2013, 10:36 am

Having seen an MPT-301 with G-Luxon LZ on +3.3V, +5V and +5VSB, they are 25mm tall, not 20mm as I guessed at in the first post. I have fixed it.

Any luck obtaining a review sample???

Pentium wrote:Power Logic fans seem to be reliable too which I've seen in every Macron

At least those I've checked under the label on have actual oil in the bearing, not that grease that sometimes goes sticky.
Attachments
Optocouplers and surroundings.jpg
The location of the smallest capacitor in the unit, which is also the only one not made by Fuhjyyu (not that GoldLink is any better).
Optocouplers and surroundings.jpg (194.19 KiB) Viewed 23900 times
+5VSB IC.JPG
Tiny, isn't it??? Too bad it doesn't have a legible ID :(
+5VSB IC.JPG (203.92 KiB) Viewed 23900 times
+5VSB area.JPG
On the left side of the heatsink is the -12V regulator and on the right of it is the +5VSB rectifier.
+5VSB area.JPG (206.78 KiB) Viewed 23900 times
Last edited by LongRunner on May 3rd, 2020, 4:32 am, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: deleted statement (duplicated in next post)
Information is far more fragile than the HDDs it's stored on.

Smart people don't buy "smart" devices without very carefully weighing up the risks and benefits beforehand.

My PC: Core i3 4130 on GA-H87M-D3H with GT640 OC 2GiB and 2 * 8GiB Kingston HyperX 1600MHz, Kingston SA400S37120G, WD3003FZEX-00Z4SA0 and HDS721010CLA630, Pioneer BDR-209DBKS and Optiarc AD-7200S, Seasonic G-360, Chenbro PC31031, Linux Mint Cinnamon 20.2 (with Windows 7 still accessible if needed).
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Re: Suggestion: Macron MPT-xxx and MPT-xxx2

Postby LongRunner » November 12th, 2013, 10:55 am

The second set of attachments is here (due to the 3-per-post limit). As for the circuit used by CWT and a few others (including Jou-Jye IIRC) that blows 2.2µF 400V electrolytics by putting them next to hot resistors, read this review. I severely doubt a circuit with two hot resistors is going to improve efficiency, though and it won't boost the voltage noticeably with the main supply running anyway.

The MOVs are between the primary capacitors and the heatsink. The two unlabelled through-holes are seemingly for the PFC coil terminations had it been installed, which would require cutting a PCB trace between them (odd that they didn't just use a jumper for the no-PFC version).
Attachments
Solder side.jpg
The minimum load resistors are 4 x 200Ω on +3.3V, 8 x 200Ω on +5V, 4 x 1.0k on +12V, 1 x 2.0k on -12V and 1 x 330Ω on +5VSB.
Solder side.jpg (204.42 KiB) Viewed 23900 times
Secondary.JPG
Some pretty beefy coils here ;) There is also provision for a tachometer fan, which would go with a cable carrying the speed signal to a motherboard header. All main rails have the larger cap before the coil.
Secondary.JPG (207.56 KiB) Viewed 23900 times
Primary.jpg
The PCB is provisioned for that same circuit used by CWT that, while intended to improve power factor, ends up being one of the best ways to dry out 2.2µF 400V caps.
Primary.jpg (195.32 KiB) Viewed 23900 times
Information is far more fragile than the HDDs it's stored on.

Smart people don't buy "smart" devices without very carefully weighing up the risks and benefits beforehand.

My PC: Core i3 4130 on GA-H87M-D3H with GT640 OC 2GiB and 2 * 8GiB Kingston HyperX 1600MHz, Kingston SA400S37120G, WD3003FZEX-00Z4SA0 and HDS721010CLA630, Pioneer BDR-209DBKS and Optiarc AD-7200S, Seasonic G-360, Chenbro PC31031, Linux Mint Cinnamon 20.2 (with Windows 7 still accessible if needed).
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Re: Suggestion: Macron MPT-xxx and MPT-xxx2

Postby LongRunner » November 12th, 2013, 4:11 pm

And of course, there's this one...
Attachments
Top view.jpg
Top view.jpg (201.66 KiB) Viewed 23899 times
Information is far more fragile than the HDDs it's stored on.

Smart people don't buy "smart" devices without very carefully weighing up the risks and benefits beforehand.

My PC: Core i3 4130 on GA-H87M-D3H with GT640 OC 2GiB and 2 * 8GiB Kingston HyperX 1600MHz, Kingston SA400S37120G, WD3003FZEX-00Z4SA0 and HDS721010CLA630, Pioneer BDR-209DBKS and Optiarc AD-7200S, Seasonic G-360, Chenbro PC31031, Linux Mint Cinnamon 20.2 (with Windows 7 still accessible if needed).
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Re: Suggestion: Macron MPT-xxx and MPT-xxx2

Postby c_hegge » November 12th, 2013, 4:32 pm

I'll probably just get one of these - http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Macron-400W- ... 2a32b3ce51
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Re: Suggestion: Macron MPT-xxx and MPT-xxx2

Postby LongRunner » November 12th, 2013, 6:27 pm

Go ahead. I was thinking along the lines of the MPT-xxx2 being worthy of a full review, though. You could get both it and the old one and include the latter in the cheapo round-up.
Information is far more fragile than the HDDs it's stored on.

Smart people don't buy "smart" devices without very carefully weighing up the risks and benefits beforehand.

My PC: Core i3 4130 on GA-H87M-D3H with GT640 OC 2GiB and 2 * 8GiB Kingston HyperX 1600MHz, Kingston SA400S37120G, WD3003FZEX-00Z4SA0 and HDS721010CLA630, Pioneer BDR-209DBKS and Optiarc AD-7200S, Seasonic G-360, Chenbro PC31031, Linux Mint Cinnamon 20.2 (with Windows 7 still accessible if needed).
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Re: Suggestion: Macron MPT-xxx and MPT-xxx2

Postby c_hegge » November 12th, 2013, 6:30 pm

I might do that, actually, although I do have on in this year's roundup which is actually a kind of OK 450-500W 2TF design. Too bad it had an 850W Label.
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